CoJoNo 2025-05-11 07:39:06

Don't get invested in forums, big mistake.

CrimsonKero 2025-05-11 07:39:37

I can set "certain" differences aside this one time, one Aussie to another just to say.

The NSFW artist thing. It's complicated. I don't really care about what happens over there, so I won't comment on it much, aside from the ol' fashioned "stay in your lane".

The AI thing on the other hand, I will comment on it.

Basically you were saying anyone can download the images manually to train AI models off NG users' work, someone's already done that, the floodgates were already opened, and there's nothing NG can do about it.

Unless that post was inadvertently inciting further drama, I don't see the point in deleting the messages if they really were that important and useful. Or... it could be China / Reddit-style censorship...

It's TurkeyOnAStick, ain't it!?
Either him or Malachy, who was in the eye of the fiasco preceding the General/Politics closure.

Make sure to archive the comments too! Document these things.

CoJoNo 2025-05-11 07:59:35

@alsoknownas1 I believe it's in the works.

CrimsonKero 2025-05-11 08:16:08

@alsoknownas1 He does seem to be very active in both threads though, as well as in Kitty's post, so he's definitely responsible in some way.

Also, when you said search "why I'm quitting NG", are you implying most of the people who have announced quitting NG on Twitter, were also hit with bans?

One of the top results seems to be from a user who had their stuff removed because "a few characters amount to child characters having sex", warning other artists to not put their NSFW work there,
https://x.com/Mistpirit/status/1847673030354620582

Seemingly missing the bit in the Art Guidelines that NG judges based on the image alone (not the author's statement that they're 18+). This also means lolicon (and so) is also banned. They don't want pedophiles on here, and lolicon is pedophilia.
|
relevant: https://anonymousfrogclock.newgrounds.com/news/post/1499376

The rest of the top posts seem to be irrelevant to NG, praise NG for various reasons (including being anti-AI), or they're complaining about not being able to post SFM content (which is almost as sloppy as using AI in this case)

As for AI itself, To iterate from what we've both said, even if there's nothing we can do to protect artists from being scraped (as it's inevitable), we can still try to honor and maintain the stuff that gets posted ON the site.

Even back in October I knew third parties would scrape no matter what, and that didn't get me banned or message-deleted. So what gives?
https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1539028/2#bbspost27961421_post_text

Simoes1000 2025-05-11 08:32:33

*Michael jackson eating popcorn gif*

PLJerry 2025-05-11 09:26:44

Messed up situation I'd say

Kattlarv 2025-05-11 19:22:34

Huh. I've had similar stuff happen. I've had several pictures and journals deleted. And outside of ONE time. They could NEVER give a reason for it. Basically vague "resisting arrest". One time it was quite literally "This isn't my personal fetish. I don't like it.".

Like, I've known for years that sites like HentaiFoundry, E621, Furraffinity, Derpibooru and to an extent: R34, have MASSIVELY corrupt admins and mobs that take bribes and do whatever the fuck they want. But I always saw Newgrounds as being a step above that.

That said, some years back when I got like, *literally* a year fucking comment ban (paired with the journal/art removal) due to not giving special treatment to the mod's favorite artist, I had a bit of whiplash. Literally just "You didn't give my boi 5 stars!" and... that was it. No commenting for a year.

One thing I recall years ago, was that I started something about how messed up it was that mods were deleted dead artists' works. Because "They can't consent to the art being on this website. So... according to our site rules...". I recall there was some wishy washy, similar excuses back then. And it was never resolved. But, that was also the time I took a hiatus from the site. So, never knew how that went.

EugeneDoesArt 2025-05-11 23:06:36

People on this site, who historically dislike each other, coming together to call out some janitorial nonsense in the forums. Thank you mods for bringing us all together in these polarizing times!

Template88 2025-05-13 04:17:48

The templar thing is new, havent gotten that one before. I legitimately do think Baphomet is pretty neat, as as far as i know those guys didnt do anything wrong(?) so I'm not exactly offended at the implication, at least with what little knowledge of them of I have. The 88 does set people of that path from time to time but I feel like most people who look at what I draw abandon that idea before voicing it to me or they assume its my birthday year. Those sorts of people tend to draw historical military stuff and knights, lots of art about race and the good old days of being a noble viking warrior and such.
You can see them on twitter from time to time. I've only ever seen one here before, his name was gunther, always made me laugh because he would boast about the superiority of his race and then I would remind him that hes balding. He would get really mad. Was obsessed about reproduction and having as many kids as he could. Little tips to spot a real nazi.

My handle comes from the idea that I dont deserve a name and that having one is pointless. I am merely an iteration. 88 comes from eight being my favorite number and it rhyming with the word template. Iteration88 doesnt quite roll off the tongue the same way. It was only later I learned of its other meanings, you have to understand that I've had this handle since the beginning. It has some positive meanings too, 88 is a lucky number but uh yeah kind of overshadowed in the west.

Sorry about the thread sort of, I was just matching the vibe. No one was bringing any good faith.
If i might suggest in the future, if you dont want people to bring heat you shouldnt villainize them right out of the gate as an other to be despised.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 06:45:37

Just got caught up with the posts.

To be honest I can't be surprised the thread got locked given that the situation was in part to why I have created the thread.

EDIT: Disregard the above, as of double checking turns out the thread was not locked. But that's what happens when I try to read threads this early in the morning before work.

I did want to try to generalize it because I doubt that the thread itself was the only time someone had a problem over NSFW art and that has been the case in other communities I've been a part of but, that is a whole other story.

On one hand I can understand sticking up for KittyhawkMontrose since she is your wife, on the other hand there's a point when insulting someone in the process of sticking up for another are two separate things. That's how I'm seeing it from your perspective and Turkey's respectively.

Trying to stay neutral on the whole thing, I don't think this is a situation where anyone wins and I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No one is innocent and no one is in the right. That's part of the reason why I stated on Kitty's first news post about the whole thing that there are more questions than answers. Was nice to see the other side of things and how other users were thinking.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 07:32:28

@alsoknownas1 if that's how you feel then I have no control over that.

At the same time, neither of us, Kitty or Turkey, or anyone else involved for that matter have the final say in this. And I'm not the one attaching my emotions into the situation.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 08:03:40

@alsoknownas1 So... let me get this straight.

What you are telling me is that how you percieve a situation is the only perspective that should matter, and that for whatever reason regardless of any bias that perspective may have it should be treated as gospel and everyone is supposed to kneel before that?

Mate how do you think this works? Perhaps you might be the one with clouded judgement here if you think that its that black and white and you're fooling yourself if you think that I'm supposed to take a side just because you tell me and everyone else to take yours in this.

Not exactly putting yourself in a good light here for that reason. At this point this is starting to look more like a show than any genuine discourse.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 08:18:52

@alsoknownas1 Its been said multiple times before on the foruns, not just by the moderation team but even users like myself that Ai has become a tired conversation in of itself. Not sure what you're on about there thinking anything new or insightful will come about that everyone doesn't already know.

The rest of this comment feels more like a psychological projection. But hey, loving the sarcasm here because clearly thats going to help you, your wife or anyone else caught up in this whole mess. So right back at you there with that remark about sounding smart.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 08:24:26

@alsoknownas1 and yet, you and your wife chose to document it for everyone to see. So why would it matter if it got deleted?

Sounds to me there is an issue with letting go here.

Please keep going with that "Mensa IQ" as you put it.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 08:29:48

@alsoknownas1 not exactly. At this point this whole question you are posing really is just bait at this point.

No please keep going since you love to cherry pick comments here I love the entertainment your posing since you seem to be the one holding onto this so dearly.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 09:07:48

@alsoknownas1 Well, since you want to push the bait, I'll take it to explain it. The thing you aren't seeing at is that the comements were likely deleted to prevent any further argument or debate that could have been seen as unproductive. It really shouldn't take that much thought or debate to considder that much.

More importantly, why would anyone need an explanation if someone could see something is becoming as such? No one is owed an explanation on why someone would choose to walk away if there is no productive conversation to be had.

Edit: It goes without saying, but this logic also applies of mods or admins chose to delete comments.

That should be common sense. Not some intellectual insight. But here we are.

But If you feel that there is something productive in this whole conversation besides all the insults and emotional injection into the arguments you are presenting that can lead to a solution for the users, mods, and the rest of the Newgrounds staff to do better. I'm all ears. But how you are going about it is not the way to do it, and that is where the criticism is being weighed against your side in particular right now.

DioShiba 2025-05-13 10:24:29

@alsoknownas1 respectfully, I don't see how its insulting to simply walk away, or from a moderators point of view delete comments should a conversation become unproductive.

Realistically, if both sides start insulting each other at random nothing good can come of it. So when you keep insisting that Turkey was in the wrong when on your side there were insults being thrown, I don't feel I can agree with that sentiment in good faith that Turkey would be in the wrong there.

Mind you, I doubt you would take kindly if you or Kittyhawk were constantly insulted after calling said person out. If someone was going to insist on being an asshole I would walk away and ignore because at that point its not worth arguing with someone who isn't going to be respectful.

That said I don't see how this is a silencing issue. I do agree however, there should be more moderators on the team there, that would help alleviate Turkey's and the rest of the teams workload. Even then, we're still a relatively small community. Regardless of that it does not mean that its going to be a bandaid when discourse goes south.

I was also critical of ZombieGhost's and Template88's arguements to why the first thread on "anti hornies" got locked in Kittyhawks first newspost about this matter. Template felt that it wouldn't have mattered how that argument was presented in the thread I made from what he had said. (I can't say I 100% agree with that, but I understand where he is coming from.) As for ZombieGhost well... I doubt that he would have provided any real insight on how his arguments since he walked back on that and he's not exactly one who can handle criticism as shown in the worst thread of 2024: https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1536877/1

You think anyone would take ZombieGhost seriously when he got called out for tracing without any real tact multiple times? Theres more I could disect there but thats a whole other can of worms relating to that hobbyist.

As for NG getting scrapped I dont see where that fits into this specific issue. That seens like a whole other issue in particular that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

EugeneDoesArt 2025-05-13 10:37:59

@DioShiba Dude, I mean this with all the respect in the world. This attitude is exactly why most of us on this site want nothing to do with BBS. I know alsoknownas1 can be very antagonistic with his responses. But in this situation in particular, he's got a point. A top mod is deleting and locking posts from threads for vague reasons that seem pedantic at best.

To peal away the animosity for a sec, Kittyhawk's frustration stems from the fact that she got banned for her "Anti-Hornies" thread after making the mistake of brining Elon and USAID into the conversation. Yeah, it detracted from the main point, but she eventually recognized that and wanted to steer the conversation back on topic, only for others to continue to derail the thread.

The thread eventually got locked and Kittyhawk got banned from BBS for what happened in that thread. She had a connection with a mod who likely got Tom involved and the ban was lifted. But since then, there's been a target placed on her (and anyone associated with her) that some of the mods have been eyeing up.

Now, if people on BBS decided they no longer appreciate her presence in the art forum after that incident, that's entirely within their right. But they don't have the kind of power a mod has to fuck your shit up and leave you feeling powerless. They don't have the power to erase you from an entire conversation, that's directly about you, like a mod does.

And that right there is the crux of this issue. Even after the ban lift, a certain segment of the mod team are still going after them for things that seem incredibly vague and opaque, such as the NSFW WIP Thread and the AI Scraping comments. And it really feels like all this stems from what happened in the Anti-Hornies thread. CrimsonKero, who have historically hated Alsoknownas1, are calling it out for the over reach it is. That should say something, no?

Based off what I've gathered from your thread and responses here, you seem to want to come to some sort of neutral ground so things can get back to a more productive pace. That's never going to happen if a mod can just delete what you're saying off the platform. And that's the kind of overreach that leads to people feeling like they have to walk on egg shells.

Kittyhawk and alsoknownas1 may be stubborn enough to stick things out and fight with others about it. But people in my camp (the vast majority of users) look at this shit, and think to ourselves, "Why the hell would I let some unpaid jannie from a dying web forum run rough shot over me"?

DioShiba 2025-05-13 10:58:19

@EugeneDoesArt I would like to point out that alsoknownas1 was the one to DM me twice about his involvement in my thread while I was asleep. So it would be easy to pursume he wanted this discussion to happen and not just some meta discussion on an overal thread about why there is drama in he NSFW art community for starters.

Turkey would have gotten shit either way had he left the thread opened or locked. Thats where its a lose-lose situation for the moderation team. Far as the ban goes I can see where that's excessive but even then that alone doesn't remove the fault of the atagonism on the other side either, as you put it.

Hence why I'm saying its going to be a no win situation on all sides. At that point, what would it matter?

DioShiba 2025-05-13 11:03:50

@alsoknownas1 well let me ask you this, is it really that hard to ignore someone who is acting foolishly on their part as opposed to bringing yourself to their level?

Is it really that hard for you to simply make a decision to ignore someone or do you just enjoy the drama?

I would think that it'd be valuing your own worth not to engage than to bring this situation on to yourself at that point.

And again, you are bringing something that is not relevant into the drama by bringing uo the scraping which has to do with, again, a tired conversation on Ai many people simply don't want to have. There isn't a discussion worth having there.