I code jockey for https://kittyhawkmontrose.newgrounds.com/
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Joined on 9/17/19
If NG can be defined as purely a porn site (based on the statistics), then YouTube might as well be a brand slopfest dominated by Indian music labels, MrBeast, cringy kids channels, and 5 Minute Crafts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-subscribed_YouTube_channels
Nothing good on YT, we need to make sure Cocomelon is fully represented.
I mean see my Playboy comparison in terms of NG being more *on top of* being a porn site, but yeah: the purpose of a system is what it does.
If NG can be defined as purely a porn site (based on the statistics), then YouTube might as well be a brand slopfest dominated by Indian music labels, MrBeast, and cringy kids channels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-subscribed_YouTube_channels
Nothing good on YT, 87% of the whole site is dominated by Cocomelon.
I mean @Diives himself is as big as 30% of all of the non-adult content on NG. There's just no comparison to YT. Even Mr Beast only does like 9-14% of YT traffic depending on who is estimating.
@alsoknownas1 Didn't notice I doubleposted.
Sturgeon's Law my friend. Sturgeon's law.
It's cool, you kind of made a slightly different version of the point each time.
On Sturgeon's law, the thing is that it's usually applied to the product not the consumer. If you compare the view based charts to the storage based ones, Sturgeons law does hold: the adult content is a minority of the submissions and a majority of the views.
I'd imagine you'd like to apply Sturgeon's to the users of the website instead of the content. I won't argue against that, it's a value difference between us.
Great information lad, and I love using SQL. I actually do not watch movies on newgrounds. The website is actively slow af all the time here, and a single video takes like triple the time it takes to watch it from just loading. I love newgrounds as a community, but I hate it as a functional website.
@alsoknownas1 Nah it's the same point. No one channel defines YouTube, same as no one channel defines Newgrounds. In both cases, most of them fill a specific demographic, but most people don't define them as the faces of YouTube, except maybe MrBeast, and even then his record has gotten spotty in the last year.
The difference is that there are less NG creators overall.
Thanks for the info, Im chocked rn 😱
Dude! Thank you for hallowing this news box. I questioned @ing you at all. What you've achieved is--as far as I know--absolutely unprecedented. Congratulations don't even begin to describe it. NG thanks you for keeping the lights on and our pants off.
This data is incredible. Thank you for taking the time to sift through and organize it with this easy to read write up. I wish we had more insight like this on the art portal!
Ha. Yeah. I talked to someone about what it would take to have something similar for the art portal and was basically told to catch fire and die. :)
I don't think the "Marxist Communist Data Liberation Team" is a real thing? Making me wonder how you got the data, and how that frames you in the eyes of Newgrounds? Follow a few people, and i suddenly look at the (new) ground i walk on a little differently. :P
In terms of this release being grudge driven, see my update 01. This post was months in the making.
As to the origins of the data, that's the beautiful thing about data. You can easily verify this dataset by picking random movies and verifying that they don't diverge significantly from the Wayback Machine. Truth is truth regardless of who speaks it.
As to how this frames me? If people want to believe I did the ridiculous amount of work required to grab all of this completely on my own, I'm probably flattered more than anything else. If they thinks that means they should believe me *less*, then they're kind of insane.
@JoeSomebody2 the floor is now lava.
I got a couple notes:
First off Newgrounds is not a porn site, I think it's more accurate to say Newgrounds allows porn and go by the diversity of uploads rather than amount of views as a more accurate way to describe the site's purpose. Porn will always get more views and return customers and the fact that Newgrounds allows porn just speaks to its diverse communities. The only reason I really wouldn't call NG a "porn site" is because of the stigma behind the words and the barrier for entry that might create for more prude internet browsers. I don't disagree with the concept, but the reality is calling it a porn site feeds into the harmful takes online about the site and it's better to adjust the language on our end. Sucks, but that's what we're working with :/
Frontpage does give you more views, visit my profile for proof. Very rarely does any non-frontpaged work of mine(excluding A rated) ever surpass the viewcount of frontpaged work. Honestly the data here just makes sense that the views are pretty split simply because less work gets frontpaged. If there's 400 uploads a day and each one gets ~100 views before leaving judgment that's a goddamn shitload of views and only 10 of those might get frontpaged. If anything that shows the staggering effect of frontpage and daily awards overall.
I agree and disagree with Tom's decision to gradually increase the age requirement to create an account, but overall I think 16 is a good age like I said in my reply to Tom's announcement here:
https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1542042/4#bbspost28014032_post_text
On NG being a porn site: To the lay person (ie your mom), a porn site is a site that has porn. To a user, a porn site is a site they go to for porn. To the regulator, a porn site is a site that willingly hosts porn. To the investor a porn site is a site that derives the majority of its revenue from porn. You are entitled to your own artsy definition while you rock out to Paramore or whatever, but at some point you're just making communication difficult. If you really want to fight stigma, I suggest embracing that like Playboy NG is "more than" or "not just another" porn site. Anything else undermines the anti-stigma message by being so clearly out of touch you seem crazy. Porn is literally 50X the traffic. Not twice, not ten times, not twenty, fifty. McDonald's is not a vegan restaurant just because two people a year order salad.
On the front page: Yes, logically for an individual piece being front paged is a net good. "There's too much good content for the front page" is a great take. My point is that the view numbers suggest a big disconnect between editorial decisions and the people who actually browse the site.
On kids: As I said, my position has evolved thanks to this data. It really does look like 16 is a good cutoff point, even ignoring liability issues. T and M content pull their own weight while E content seems to be a long tailed unviewed wasteland.
@BrandyBuizel I agree with you, because there's a ton of stuff that originated from or started on NG that isn't A-rated and is popular, such as Madness Combat, Friday Night Funkin, Henry Stickmin, Animation vs Animation, Eddsworld, and many more. And if you played Flash games as a kid, chances are you've played a bunch of Newgrounds games (even if you had never visited NG back then).
Ray Bradbury, Kurt Vonnegut, and even Margaret Atwood all basically started at Playboy. Most of Jame Bond was previewed or first appeared there. People will still rightly look at you with a smile if you call it a literary magazine.
I'm not saying that we have a bad thing going here. I love that Diives makes room for "Wheelie Yellow", but I really dislike it when the people disrespect the people going out in the streets and making it happen and that's been happening a lot recently, especially in the forums.
@BrandyBuizel At the very least you could call this place the "shady video rental place that has a back room that's the majority of the floor space". I mean when I mention NG irl, I get the following responses, ranked least to most:
"I stopped going there when I discovered real porn."
"Isn't that a porn site?"
"Isn't that the site with Sha...?"
I think the data reflects the first two.
Copying Update 02 here so that @'s are properly propagated:
Update 02:
Music mod @ADR3-N has proposed:
A new forum for adult art/animation/etc content, ofc locked to anyone under 18 (pre-existing forum rules ofc apply)
In light of the data I think this is more than reasonable. It being basically verboten to post/discuss 90% of the content on the site in the forums is, to paraphrase one of my favourite commentators, "ka-ah-raze-eeeeeee".
@BrandyBuizel Is it fair to say the "is it porn" question feels like a waste of our time, when pornography is a nonsense term? Anything can cause arousal and can be art, so "porn" is just a political framing to oppress human behavior.
Our focus should be working out the boundaries in regard to law (messed as they are right now), followed by ongoing education and coalition building (so as to change laws). :o
@KittyhawkMontrose that is exactly the issue. We should consider the public perception of newgrounds when talking about it. Calling it a porn site when we know that isn't the majority of content will make a lot of people skip over newgrounds and think there's nothing there for them specifically. But we have everything here!
I had this struggle a lot while dorming at SCAD and it took a lot of legwork to open my peers minds to NG and I got a lot of them to make accounts afterward. Even my co-creator on LUCKYBOY was anti-newgrounds when I met him because it felt cooler to write it off as a relic and a porn site, but then he realized how adamant I was about supporting the site he confessed he used to use it in the past and decided to rejoin it.
I'm just saying a simple change of verbage can open people's eyes to NG
@JoeSomebody2 What little I know of your politics I respect, so I feel I should say that my pushing "NG is a porn site" is purely an act of "the politics of the now." I agree with you that the term porn is basically meaningless in most context and is almost always used nearly exclusively for oppression. My issue is that when many on this site say "NG is not a porn site" they do so not as a statement of protest trying to expand the definition of art to be more inclusive but instead to divide the content they like on the site from that which they don't and to declare the former the "real" NG or the latter an inconvenient necessity. This allows them to foolishly believe that the stigma that applies to NG as a whole doesn't apply to them.
NG can only truly work against the stigma against it when fans of PhantomArcade believe said stigma is just as unfairly applied to fans of Diives as it is to them, that everyone is in the same unfairly stigmatised boat. Hence "NG is a porn site" is a unifying phrase. It just also happens to be factually correct by any current good faith usage of the term in almost all legal, lay, and cultural context.
@alsoknownas1 I mostly suggested a separate adult forum so A, adult content could be totally filtered out of all the other forums, where non-horny folks post their stuff, and B, it would have a unified home for all kinds of adult content creators. Think about it, adult animators need adult VAs, and adult game programmers need animators, artists, and VAs. It makes no sense for them to run all over the forums when their audience and compatriots fall into the same category
I strongly believe this was Tom and the programming staff's intention when thread ratings were introduced. It just had to be so much damn programming work to undertake otherwise. Sadly, mods made the feature basically irrelevant by moderating A threads as if they were any other thread.
At this point, I think only a separate forum adequately conveys "no really, this is a separate thing".
@alsoknownas1 this is why I feel uniquely situated to make the claim that we shouldn't be calling "NG a porn site with other stuff too" because I think I'm equally well-known for SFW content and NSFW content so maybe I can lend some validity there with my lack of bias against porn
We're really just talking marketing at this point. We both want NG to flourish as everything it is. I just think embracing the reality of NG's current rep (and as proven above) audience and saying "but that's not all there is", ie the Playboy model is the best way moving forward, rather than trying to brand the site something it currently isn't.
I'm not doubting your porn bonafides, but that's kind of my point. "Not a porn site" accepts the external framing and throws half of your work and the work of so many on this site under the bus.
On porn being a porn site: To the layporn (ie your porn), a porn site is a porn that has porn. To a porn, a porn site is a porn they go to for porn. To the porn, a porn site is a porn that willingly porns porn. To the pornvestor a porn site is a porn that derives the majority of its porn from porn. You are porntitled to your own porntsy pornfinition while you porn out to Pornramore or whatever, but at some pornt you're just making pornmunication pornficult. If you really want to porn porn, I suggest pornbracing porn like Pornboy NG is "porn than" or "porn just pornother" porn site. Anyporn else underporns the anti-porn pornsage by being so pornly out of porn you seem pornzy. Porn is literally pornX the traffic. Not porn, not porn times, not porn, porn. Porn is not a porn pornstaurant just because two porn a porn order porn.
@JoeSomebody2 This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tamago basically only succeeds on less censored sites like here and X. He has practically no "legitimate" success whatsoever. Rather than accept that maybe the majority of people who have been cast into the freak pile as he has been are just as unfairly tossed, he tries instead to signal to polite society that he "isn't one of *them*" with whatever means he finds convenient (in this case porn). It's pathetic "pick me" behavior.
Also, the gag is clearly funnier if the one phrase you don't change is "your mom".
YendorTOO
Holy Grep command, Batman!
alsoknownas1
I did be that way.